Transcript of the Official Shorthand Notes of 'The Trial of Josef Kramer and Forty Four Others'
Twenty Ninth Day Friday, 19th October, 1945
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I wish to draw the attention of the Court to what I believe to be an error in yesterday's transcript. It appears in the evidence at the top of page 22. The question was: "He was never a member of the SS to the best of your knowledge?", and the answer is: "No, I saw him the first time as I described him to the Court as being an SS man". It does not seem quite to make sense.
THE PRESIDENT: As far as I recollect the last five words were in.
CAPAIN ROBERTS: If they were in they have been turned round in some way or other.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I quite agree with my friend regarding the sense of the answer: "The first time I ever saw him described as an SS man was here in Court".
THE PRESIDENT: I understood him to say that. I think the answer should read: "The first time I ever saw him described as an SS man was here in Court".
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Yes.
MAJOR CRANFIELD: I will now call Stefan Hermann.
STEFAN HERMANN is called in.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: The witness will give evidence in German. He is being sworn on the bible and says it is binding on his conscience.
STEFAN HERMANN having been duly sworn is examined by MAJOR CRANFIELD as follows: Is your name Stefan Hermann? - Yes.
Were you a Sturmmann in the SS and a guard at the concentration camp Mittelbau near Nordhausen? - Yes.
Stand up, No. 12 (Accused Josef Klippel stands up). Do you recognise that man? - Yes.
What is his name? - Josef Klippel.
Did you first meet him at Mittelbau in October, 1943? - Yes.
Did you see him at Mittelbau regularly until 4th April, 1945? - Yes, up to the 4th April.
Did you see him on the 4th April and on that day did you leave Nordhausen by train? - Yes.
Where did the train go? - We were not told where the destination was, but the direction of Neuengamme.
Did the train go to Neuengamme? - No, we arrived at Belsen.
Where did the train go before you got to Belsen? - We stayed for a night in the vicinity of Hamburg. Then the next morning we continued and arrived at Belsen.
How long did you yourself stay at Belsen? - I stayed there in the Wehrmacht barracks area for two days.
Where did you go after that? - Then my company withdrew to the Elbe according to plan.
Which company was that? - Company No. 2.
Cross-examined by MAJOR WINWOOD: Will No. 4 stand up? (Accused George Kraft stands up) Do you know this man? - Yes.
What is his name? - Kraft.
When did you first meet him? - I knew him at Vienna and went together with him to camp Buchenwald.
When did you go to Vienna? - In July, 1943.
And when did you go to Buchenwald? - In July, 1943.
Where did you go from Buchenwald? - To Mittelbau.
When was that? - September, 1943.
Did Kraft go with you? - Yes.
While you were at Vienna, Buchenwald and Mittelbau, did Kraft ever go to Auschwitz? - I have no idea about that.
MAJOR MUNRO: No questions.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: No questions.
CAPTAIN BROWN: No questions.
Cross-examined by CAPTAIN FIELDEN: My questions relate to accused No. 22 (Ansgar Pichen). (To the witness) Were you at Mittelbau continuously from October, 1943, until April, 1945? - Yes.
Will No. 22 stand up? (Accused Ansgar Pichen stands up). Did you see that man there? - I do not know that man at all.
CAPTAIN CORBALLY: No questions.
CAPTAIN NEAVE: No questions.
CAPTAIN PHILLIPS: No questions.
LIEUTENANT BOYD: No questions.
CAPTAIN MUNRO: No questions.
LIEUTENANT JEDRZEJOWICZ: No questions.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: No questions.
(The witness withdraws)
MAJOR CRANFIELD: That is all the evidence on behalf of Klippel.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I appear for the accused Oscar Schmedidzt, No. 14, and Karl Flrazich, No. 16. Both are facing the first charge only, that relating to Belsen, and they will both give evidence themselves and neither of them will be calling any other witnesses, so their defence needs very little introduction.
The first of the two, Schmedidzt, has never been identified in Court by any of the Prosecution witnesses, and the only evidence - if it could be called such - which the Prosecutor has tendered against him, is that contained in one document, a draft affidavit which was produced by Sergeant Dinsdale. That is exhibit 9, page 185 of the abstract.
His defence, as may have been apparent from my cross examination of other witnesses on his behalf, is that he was never in the SS and in fact was an ordinary prisoner throughout the war in various camps throughout Germany. He did not arrive in Belsen until the 11th April, or thereabouts, and went to No. 2 camp - that is the one in the barracks - and was never in No. 1 camp at all. In fact he only went there afterwards, having become mixed up with the SS prisoners in No. 2 camp when ordered to do so to bury the dead.
I will now call OSCAR SCHMEDIDZT.
The accused OSCAR SCHMEDIDZT takes his stand at the place from which the other witnesses have given their evidence, and having been duly sworn is examined by CAPTAIN ROBERTS as follows:
What is your full name? - Oscar Schmedidzt.
When and where were you born? - On the 23rd February, 1916, at Köln.
Are you German and unmarried? - Yes.
Will you take your mind back to 1933, when Hitler came into power, and tell the Court what were you doing then? - I was studying at that time, sort of engineering job.
Did you belong to any political party? - Before 1933, although not active, I was in the Communistic youth movement.
Was any attempt made to force you to join any other party? - Yes.
What was that? - At that time the whole German youth was collected into the movement of the Hitler Youth, and the man where I had been working at that time tried to force me to join the movement.
Did you join it? - No.
Where were you living at this time? - At Köln.
With whom? - With my mother.
When did you complete your training as an engineer? - In the month of May, 1934, I finished my exams.
Did you then obtain employment in a firm in Köln? - For a short period I was still working there where I finished my training, but then I was dismissed because I did not belong to any party organisation. For a period I was without any sort of work, and then I took on odd sort of jobs; times were very difficult then.
When you say "party", you mean the Nazi Party, do you? - Yes.
Now how long did you go on in this state of casual employment? - About ten weeks. On one job I was working there only for ten weeks, and the second job for about six weeks; that was all.
Were you still living with your mother? - Yes.
And after this period what happened? - I had a relief of 7 Marks 50 a week, dole money, and I did not want to be a burden on my mother, and therefore I left her house. I had still all sorts of odd jobs. I helped, for instance, in the slaughter house, but all that was nothing real, and one day I had to pay the rent for my room, 4 Marks 50.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Will you guide the witness a little? You probably have some point you want to bring out.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: He is coming to the point now, Sir. (To the witness) As a result of this, did you do something for which you were later imprisoned? - Yes. I did something for what I was arrested on the 27th November, 1934. I went into a pawnshop and left there a set of cups, plates and so on that did not belong to me, therefore I was arrested.
How long were you in prison? - To the 3rd December, 1935.
When Germany marched into the Rhineland in 1936, what happened to you then? - I was conscripted for the Arbeitsdienst, a sort of semi-military organisation, which should have been followed by a proper military training later on.
Did you serve in the Arbeitsdienst? - No, I went to Hamburg to tried to go abroad.
Did you go abroad? - No. Although I tried twice to get abroad on a ship I did not succeed in doing so.
In October, 1936, were you again in prison? - Yes.
For what offence? - Because I took from Duisburg a car which did not belong to me and went to Hamburg in that car.
For how long did you remain in prison on this occasion? - From October, 1936, to the 4th August, 1939.
When you came out of prison in August, 1939, did you go back to Köln and work in the Daimler Benz Mercedes factory there? - Yes.
In December, 1939, did you receive a calling-up order telling you to report to a recruiting station? - Yes. I ought to have reported on the 8th December - there was a war on - but I did not report and went away from Köln.
Did you go to Vienna and you were arrested there in January, 1940? - Yes.
Were you sentenced to a further term of imprisonment? - No, I was sent to a camp in a sort of protective custody to a camp at Emsland, near the North Sea.
What other sort of prisoners were there in that camp? - Only military personnel who had deserted, beginning from a Private to a Major.
How long did you stay in this camp in Emsland? - Up to March, 1944.
What work were you doing there? - All sorts of drainage work on the moors there, and planting potatoes.
Was was the reason for leaving the camp in March, 1944? - There was some sort of disease rampant, a sort of infectious disease, and therefore we were evacuated.
Did you go to Vienna and were you in prison there for about a month? - Yes, I was brought to Vienna to the Gestapo and was held there for a whole month.
What happened to you then? - In the beginning of May I came with a transport consisting mostly of Hungarian Jews and the whole Hungarian Government, to Mauthausen.
How long did you stay there? - Until June, 1944.
Were you then sent to the Hermann Goering factory at Linz? - Yes.
At the end of July, 1944, was that factory raided and were you wounded? - Yes, it was on the 25th July.
Have you a scar as a result of that wound? - Yes, I have got a scar.
Did you go to hospital and when you had recovered were you sent back to Mauthausen? - Yes.
How long did you stay in Mauthausen this time? - Until November, 1944.
What happened then? - In November I was sent with 1200 other prisoners to Auschwitz.
What did you do there? - We arrived at Birkenau. There was a selection parade and then I was sent to Auschwitz No. 3, Monowitz.
Did you move from Auschwitz in January, 1945, and go to Nordhausen? - Yes.
Were you sent to a small satellite camp? - Yes, in the month of March.
How many prisoners were there working at this little camp? - 28.
Was the place called Tettenborn? - Yes.
On what work were you employed? - Trucks came which were evacuated from the Eastern Front containing "V" weapons, and we had to unload them.
Were you appointed to an official position there? - Yes, I I was the only German there and so I was put in charge of the camp.
When did you leave there and how did you leave that camp? - On the 5th April, at 1600 hours, motorcycles came and brought me the order that we have to evacuate Tettenborn and march to Herzberg [Herzberg am Harz] and from there we should continue our journey in a train. We boarded the train and went to Hamburg Neuengamme, but in Neuengamme the transport was not received by the camp, and therefore we were sent to Bergen-Belsen.
And when did you arrive at Bergen-Belsen? - 10th April.
Just before I go on with this episode, I would like to go back to clear up one point. When you were at Tettenborn, do you remember meeting No. 12, Klippel? - Not in Tettenborn.
Will you tell the Court the circumstances, how you came to meet him? - When I was in Tettenborn a prisoner doctor arrived, but he had no medical supplies at all, so therefore I went back to Dora camp to fetch some medical supplies for him, and they told me there that I had to have a cardboard box. I went to the kitchen to get a cardboard box, but I was told to go to the stores, and in the stores I met Klippel and I asked Klippel there for a cardboard box.
Did you ask him for anything else? - Yes, I asked him whether I could have some bread, but he answered he cannot give it to me, and then I went into the stores there, into a part of the stores, and got a cardboard box.
Now you have just arrived at Belsen. About what time did you arrive at the camp itself? - In the morning of the 10th April.
At which camp was it? - Wehrmacht barrack area.
What happened then? - When we arrived there, Wehrmacht personnel occupied still the barracks. Our transport Führer, the man in charge of the transport was called Hartwig. So we had to wait until these barracks were free. I arrived with the very first transport. We occupied three blocks, 85, 87 and 88, and there were only very few German nationals amongst the prisoners and they asked me to have a look round whether I could find something to eat. On the 10th one transport after another arrived and that went on in the same way on the 11th, and as prisoners asked me to try and get some food for them, I was made Lagerältester by the prisoners. I went then in the afternoon of the 10th to Hössler and told him that these prisoners have been on their way for several days and something must be done about food, and he really promised me to try, and in the evening of the same day, I do not know, in two or maybe three kitchens food was cooked.
What else did you do during those days? - So in the evening I had this conversation with Hössler and at that time there were hardly any food supplies there but on the next day the first lorry with bread arrived and that was followed by turnips and potatoes. There were all the nations of the world, Belgians and Dutch and Italians and Czechs and Poles, and I know from my experiences, from my long experiences in concentration camps what it means when all these nations are together, not being able to understand each other at all. Then I asked Hössler whether these people - and you must know there were very many of them, 15000 - could be somewhat organised into different nations and he said: "Well, all right, if you can do it, do it then" and I spent two whole days and nights by going from one block to the other trying to find out how many nations there were and how many people belonging to each respective nation. On the morning of the 16th April I finished this job and you will remember the witness Brigadier Hughes who said that that job was finished, that people were in different nations, organised in different nations.
Did you have to use any force to carry this out? - No.
I want you to try and remember the 13th April, or thereabouts. Were you given an opportunity of leaving the camp? - Yes. On the 12th when the SS troops left the camp all the German nationals, all the prisoners of German nationality, were told to assemble and a party of 150 was selected to leave the camp; I was amongst them. There was a rumour amongst the prisoners that this 150 would be sent straight to the front line. I did not want to do that, and therefore, I stayed on.
What sort of clothing were you wearing during this period? - The same clothing as all the other prisoners in concentration camps, this sort of striped clothing.
Did you have any arms? - No.
What happened when the British troops arrived? - On the morning of the 16th, about 9.30, the first amplifier van, this radio van, loudspeaker van, came and stopped in front of the Kommandant’s office and the first or second phrase was that this camp was liberated and the Germans had nothing more to say there. He said that in all the languages so that everyone understood. From this moment all sorts of groups were created, formed mostly out of Ukrainians, and those groups went through the camp and wherever they saw a German prisoner they gave him a beating. That night the night was quite quiet but on the next morning those groups I mentioned before were going through the camps again and as the prisoners were organised in different nations it was very easy to find out the German group of prisoners. By that time this group was very small, only about 35 prisoners left.
Did one of those groups finally attack you? - Yes. They went round from room to room and tried to find the Germans. It is quite understandable that they were furious about National Socialism but, of course, those Germans were prisoners themselves; they were certainly not guilty of National Socialism.
Will you now tell the Court the circumstances of the actual attack on you? - About eight or nine of these came into the room where I lived. We were only three, three Germans, and they asked us to undress, to leave everything, boots and pullover, trousers and tunic and shirt, until I was left only in my underpants and my socks.
Had they any weapons? - Yes, they had socks [sticks] and one of them had a rifle.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I think one of them had a bayonet, not a rifle.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Then a sort of fight started because we tried to get out from the door and they beat us with their sticks so I could not do anything else but jump out of the window and the height of that window was just like the gallery of the Courtroom.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Where did you go from there? - I was lucky because nothing happened to me and I reported immediately to the Kommandantur which was just opposite my block where I jumped from. I reported to a British guard who put me in a room where already four SS men were held.
Did you try to explain you were not an SS man? - That is a later chapter.
Did you try to explain then that you were not an SS man? - I came into that room, as I said before, only clad in my underpants and my socks, and there I saw a uniform hanging on a nail and I put that uniform on so that I should not be running around in that attire and then I tried to explain to the British guard but, or course, it was quite hopeless; he did not speak German and I did not speak English so we could not understand each other.
What other SS men were in that room? - The four SS men were Klippel, Kraft, Kltscho and Stefan. Later on I was brought together with these four to join the other SS men.
Who were those other SS men? - Hössler, Schmedidzt, Stärfl, Fritzner and Kulessa. Then I tried in the evening for the second time to get out and to go back to my block and when I opened the door I forgot at the moment I had on an SS uniform and that the guard would take me for an SS man and so he immediately held his rifle and bayonet and said: "Fucking SS", and from that day I had to share all the work which the SS were told to do. Then on 21st April I was told to go to Belsen Concentration Camp and to drag the bodies and to bury them. I do not need to say anything to the Court what happened there because the Court has seen the place.
Was that the first occasion on which you had been in what has been called in this Court No. 1 Camp? - On the 21st April as a prisoner of the British troops.
Were you brought to Celle on 28th April? - Yes, together with. the SS men. On the second day I reported immediately to a Sergeant Major Starr, a German Sergeant Major in charge of part of the prison, and told him I was not an SS man but I am a concentration camp prisoner myself, and he brought a British sergeant and translated that to him and the British Sergeant promised he would look into this matter. But through my work in Camp No. 1 I caught an infectious disease; and on 6th May I fainted and caught typhus and on 15th May I was sent to the hospital.
From the time when you were first mistaken for an SS man up to the time you appeared first in this Court has anybody ever interrogated you? - This is for the first time here I am asked any questions concerning this.
Did you try repeatedly to establish your true identity? - Yes.
I want you to turn your attention to page 185, the deposition of Vaclav Jecny. Have you got a German copy of that? - Yes.
What have you got to say about that? - No, all that is nonsense; I was a prisoner and have never been an SS man.
Look carefully at paragraph 2. Tell me if the descriptions contained in that paragraph are consistent with Camp No. 2? - No, it cannot have been Camp 2.
Why not?
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: What was your question - could it have been what?
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Looking at this paragraph could the words, the description, that are used in it be consistent with it being Camp No. 2.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: The Wehrmacht barracks?
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No, because, for instance, a group of prisoners were standing near the barbed wire which separated the block from the main street - that is not consistent with Camp 2.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Was there any barbed wire in Camp 2? - No.
Was there a No. 1 kitchen? - No. Then a hospital is mentioned here and we had no hospital at all. Only later on a block was transferred to a part of a hospital - to a sort of C.R.S.
Did you ever shoot any prisoners? - Until today I have never had any weapons, fire weapons, in my hands.
Have you ever ill treated any prisoners? - No, never.
You remember that you told us you were given a position of authority at Tettenborn. Had you had any similar position before that? - No.
MAJOR WINWOOD: No questions.
MAJOR MUNRO: No questions.
MAJOR CRANFIELD: No questions.
Cross-examined by CAPTAIN BROWN: My questions relate to the accused No. 19. You have told us that you travelled on a transport under the charge of a man called Hartwig. Was No. 19 (Otto Kulessa) on the same transport? - Yes.
Before you started on the journey were you given a supply of food for the journey? - Not we from Tettenborn; prisoners from Dora got rations for five days but not we.
During the journey did you see any guards shooting prisoners? - No.
Did you see any shooting when you arrived at the barracks at Bergen-Belsen? - Yes.
Did you see No. 19 shooting anybody? - No.
Did the whole of your transport get into Blocks 85, 87 and 88? - No, not all those 2500 could go into those blocks so the remainder was distributed in what I call Square 2 because they were numbered 1, 2, 3, 4.
Do you know the numbers of the blocks in Square 2? - Square 2 contained 78, 77, 76 and, I believe, 75.
Did you see No. 19 standing at the door of a block beating prisoners? - No.
CAPTAIN FIELDEN: No questions.
CAPTAIN CORBALLY: No questions.
CAPTAIN NEAVE: No questions.
CAPTAIN PHILLIPS: I have no questions and neither has Lt. Boyd.
CAPTAIN MUNRO: No questions.
LIEUTENANT JEDRZEJOWICZ: No questions.
Cross-examined by COLONEL BACKHOUSE: You told us you were more or less continuously in prison from 1935 until August of 1939. That is right, is it not? - From 1934.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: My friend objects to the "continuously". (To the witness) You did have a short spell out and then committed another crime and went back again?
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: More than that. Anyway, I think the Court have got a note of it. Arrested in November.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: December, 1934.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: To December, 1935, and then he was put in prison again in October, 1936.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: He came out in December, 1935, went in in 1936. (To the witness) Your second sentence was two and a half years, was it not? - Two years nine months.
Then a month or two after you came out you were called up for the Army, were you not? - Yes, I was called up; I should have gone.
Then you told us you deserted and went to Vienna? - Yes.
About what time in 1940 were you arrested? - 26th January.
Then you were sent to Emsland because that was a military prison, was it not? - No, Emsland No. 7 was a camp for protective custody.
It had a military governor had it not? - Yes, S.A. Kommandant - like the SS only not the same.
Were you not given a sentence? - Protective custody.
Then in March, 1944, you say you were taken to Vienna? - Yes.
Of course Emsland was not evacuated at all - Emsland was still being used right up to the time of the liberation?
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: How can the witness know if he was not there?
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: He left because they were evacuated because of disease which became rampant. (To the witness) Emsland was not evacuated as a military prison or a protective custody place, or whatever else you like to call it, in March, 1944, at all was it? - No; about later I do not know.
Vienna was where the new recruits for the SS were taken, was it not? - I do not know.
That is where Kraft was taken, and Klippel was taken, and the others, to ...
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I do not see how he can be expected to answer these questions.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I am suggesting to him that he did; that is where we are going to differ.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: I think the Court will stop the Prosecutor if necessary - unless you have a definite point in law or a definite statement of fact.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I am suggesting to you that when you went to Vienna you joined the SS? - No, that is not right; that is nonsense. The Prosecutor knows quite well that I have been a prisoner myself, so I could not have been as SS man.
Where did you say you went from Vienna? - to the concentration camp at Mauthausen.
You told us you went with a transport of Hungarian Jews? - Yes.
Were you not there as one of the guard of the transport? - I do not know anything about that.
Do you speak Hungarian? - No.
Why were you put with a transport of Hungarian Jews then? - They came from Hungary, through Vienna, and I with about 120 other prisoners had to join that transport.
If you were not in the SS, do you at least admit that perhaps you were a Kapo with that transport? - No, I was a simple prisoner.
You went from there, you say, to Linz and from there back to Mauthausen and I suppose if I asked you the same question about each you would only give me the same answer and I am sure the Court do not want me to do that. Then you came to Auschwitz in November, did you not? - Yes.
Birkenau? - Yes.
And there you attended a selection parade? - Yes.
Just tell us what happened on that selection parade? - When we arrived we were sent to the sauna, bathhouse, and later on we had to register and each of us got a number; then an Arbeitsdienstführer, the man in charge of the working parties, came and selected people for different smaller camps run by Auschwitz.
Did you have your number tattooed on your arm like the other prisoners we have heard? - No, that was not done to the German prisoners.
Then you went to Auschwitz 3? - Yes.
And nobody thought of using you as a Kapo there either? - No, because I was working with four others in the motor transport department.
You say in January you went to Mauthausen? - Yes.
Before you went to Mauthausen just tell us a little bit more about Auschwitz. How were you treated at Auschwitz? - I personally cannot complain about Auschwitz because I was in this camp which I mentioned before, Monowitz, and that was working for the armaments industry and there the prisoners were treated quite well.
How were you treated when you arrived at Birkenau? - When we arrived we had to fall in in fives and we were marched off to the sauna, bathhouse and everything was done by fellow prisoners, for instance, registering and being given a number or in the sauna - all done by fellow prisoners.
And, I take it, you did not see any beating or ill-treatment of anybody at all? - No. We were purposely required for the armaments industry. There was the I.G. Farben Industry, and that is the reason why we were asked to come to Auschwitz.
Then you told us you went to Mauthausen in January of 1945. Which camp were you in first at Mauthausen? - Dora.
Did you ever see anybody ill treated there at all? - Not in Dora because there prisoners were needed for working on the V weapons; V1 and V2 weapons.
Really you have had a very good time in concentration camps, have you not? - I could not say so.
And then you went to this small camp at Tettenborn? - Yes.
Which you were in charge of? - Yes.
And when you wanted some medical supplies you just slipped into Dora and got them? - That was a P.O.W. camp, and there was nothing there, no blankets, no palliasses at all.
And did you go down to Dora and get some? - Yes.
Who guarded you? - The man in charge had the rank of Unterscharführer and the others belonged to the Air Force - the other guards I mean belonged to the Air Force.
How was it the order to evacuate that camp was brought to you and not brought to the Unterscharführer? - This order was given to the Unterscharführer, but I saw how the motorcycle had arrived, and then the Unterscharführer told me we had to evacuate now and march to Herzberg.
What you said was: "A motorcycle came and brought me the order to march to Herzberg [Herzberg am Harz]". - No, he did not bring me this order, because I myself was nothing else but a number.
Why did you say: "He brought me the order"? - That was a wrong expression of mine. I was standing nearby.
When you went down to fetch these medical supplies was that really all done on the instructions of the Unterscharführer? - No.
Could you just go back to Dora if you felt like it to fetch things? - No, it was not quite so. I had to report to the Unterscharführer, and then when he allowed me to go down I was with a sentry who came with me on the train, and that is a distance of 28 kilometres. Then at Dora I had to apply for these things, and if the application was granted it was all right.
When you got to Belsen was Hössler was in charge of the whole party, of the camp? - Yes.
Had you seen Hössler before you got there? - In Dora.
Did he know you in Dora? - I do not know.
How did it come about that somebody who had just been in command of a little party of 28 became the Lagerälteste for 15000. How did you come to be chosen? - I can explain this. In Tettenborn I had an armlet with "L.A." on it, Lagerältester, and when we arrived in Bergen-Belsen somebody who spoke German had to take charge of things, and all the others, French and Czechs and Poles, all of them came to me and asked me to take over.
Tell me a little more about the journey down. Do you say that Kulessa was on your transport? - Yes.
Are you quite sure about the date you started? - Yes we left Tettenborn on the 5th April.
I want to suggest to you that the whole of this Dora party arrived a little bit earlier than you say? - No.
Were you six days on the journey? - Yes.
About how many people were there to each truck? - 100.
Did quite a lot of people die on the journey? - When we arrived in Bergen we had 47 dead.
How do you know the figures so well? - Because I stayed on on the station in Bergen with 10 other prisoners to load those dead bodies on a truck, and on that occasion I had to count them.
Were you in charge of the prisoners who were doing this loading of the dead bodies? - I took part myself in it; there was nobody in charge of that party.
Do you remember some shooting down there at the station? - No.
Do you remember some shooting as soon as you arrived at Belsen, the barracks? - Not when we arrived.
When did you see some shooting there? - From the 13th until the 16th April.
I suggest to you that when you arrived at Belsen there were some vegetables opposite the parade when it was drawn up, and a lot of prisoners who had had nothing to eat on that journey broke off and tried to get some of them? - That is true. I remember there were vegetables in a big heap, but this heap of vegetables was on the other side of the train, and any prisoner who wanted to get there should have to climb over the train before reaching that pile of vegetables.
Did not some of the prisoners try and get to those vegetables? - I myself had not seen anything. If there were 2500 or 3000 prisoners there, and if I stand at one end I cannot see what happens at the other end.
Did you not hear any shots? - No.
Were you standing on one end guarding the parade? - No. I was in the last truck, and that is the reason why I stood at the end of the parade.
I just want to ask you a bit about the food on that journey. You have told us that the people from Tettenborn had no food; is that right? - That is right.
How was the food for the people from Dora carried? - As far as I remember I was told there was one and a half loaves of bread and two pounds of meat in a tin per prisoner.
How was that carried? - There was nothing much to be carried, because they carried it in their hands, and the next day it had gone because they had eaten it.
You mean that it was issued to each prisoner separately before he left, do you? - I was not there; I do not know how it was issued.
Did you not get any food during the journey? - No.
And you have nothing to eat for the whole six days? - No, during the six days I had nothing.
You looked remarkably well on it when you got to Belsen, did you not? - That is possible.
What water did you get? - No water at all.
You had neither food nor water for six days? - I got sometimes a drop of water, I myself - I am speaking about myself now.
And a little food? - No.
Then when you got to the camp you really organised it for Hössler, did you not? - No. I told him that people who arrived must have something to eat, and his answer was: "Yes, we shall see to that that it will be done."
And then you explained to Hössler the difficulties of a concentration camp with people of a good many nations in it, did you not? - Yes.
And you explained to him that you thought that it would be better if you put the people into blocks by nationalities? - Yes.
Are you really suggesting that was the way a prisoner was allowed to talk to the SS? - Why not?
Let me suggest to you that the reason why you were set upon in that camp was because you were in the SS - How can I be in the SS if I am a prisoner; such a case never existed.
Was not the reason that you were set upon in that camp because you were in the SS? - How could I be in the SS if I was a prisoner? Such a case never existed.
And the reason why you were in your underpants and your stockings was because you tried to get rid of your SS uniform? - Then it would not have been necessary that I should go to the Kommandantur.
Were you not chased there by the prisoners? - No.
We have had two people, I think, who both said they knew you as a prisoner. They were both in that room that you got into, were they not? - Yes.
Equally, of course, you have never seen anybody in the dock ill treat anybody, have you? - I have never seen these people before, and I knew them only from Bergen.
And have you never seen an SS man ill treat anybody in a concentration camp? - Oh yes.
May I put it this way: you have never seen an SS man ill treat anybody in any of the camps that any of the people in the dock were at? - I have never been together with these SS people here.
And you never see anybody ill treated either at Auschwitz or at Dora or at Belsen? - Oh yes.
Where did you see them ill treated? - In Mauthausen.
That is not Auschwitz, Belsen or Dora, is it? - Yes, but during the period I was in concentration camps.
You saw a lot of people ill treated in Mauthausen, did you? - I have been there in the quarantine, and there I have seen quite a lot of things happen.
What sort of things? - When we arrived in Mauthausen we were sent to the quarantine; that is a comparatively small room meant for 80 to 90 people. We were there, 400 or 500 people, forced to spend the night there.
Have you seen people beaten there? - Yes. When we arrived we were standing about because there was no possibility really to lie down, there was no room. So the Blockführer came, an SS man; he came and said: "I shall return and then I want to see that everybody is lying, everybody lies on the floor." Well, there was no possibility to understand him because there were all sorts of nationals there who could not speak German. Then he came back and people were still standing, so he took his rubber truncheon and said: "Well, here is the interpreter that you are going to understand", and then he started beating us until really everybody was on the floor.
I want to take you back to Belsen. You told us that a lot of people left Belsen before the British came? - Yes.
And only those were kept behind who were wanted for the administration work of the camp, were they not? - Amongst the prisoners the Germans had left, and amongst the SS men only a very small number had stayed on.
The people who stayed behind, the S. S. men who stayed behind, had got a very big job on, had they not? - Yes, when we arrived there was nothing there; the barracks were empty; the kitchens were empty, so something had to be done.
And the last few days a frantic effort was made to clean up the camp before the British arrived, was it not? - There was no particular reason to clean up because it was quite clean. They were military barracks.
The military barracks part was reasonably clean, was it not? - Well, just like barracks are.
What I am suggesting to you is that all the resources of the SS men were turned on to trying to clean up the concentration camp part? - Amongst those SS who were with me I did not see anybody leaving the camp, because I myself I wanted to go once to Belsen Concentration Camp with a truck loaded with bread, and I was told: "You cannot go there. That camp is closed. There is typhus there."
What did you want to take the truck of bread there for? - I saw two trucks loaded with bread arriving which Hössler got from the bakery there. One truck was unloaded and to the driver of the other one Hössler said: "You take this truck to the concentration camp, Belsen, to the women’s compound", so I wanted to go there with the driver, but he told me: "You cannot go there. That camp is closed. Typhus is raging there."
My suggestion to you is that you did go there and that you did assist in supervising the cleaning up of the camp, dragging bodies away. Lest there should be any mistake, I am talking about going there before the British arrived and supervising the cleaning up of the camp, not after the British arrived. - I must say that I would like to remind the Court of the witness who certainly stated that she saw me, and now it is quite clear that it had been a mistake, it was not me at all. In exactly the same way the Prosecutor must make a mistake in stating this, and after all he was not there, it was me who was there.
That is what I am suggesting to you, that it was you who was there.
THE INTERPRETER: He did not mean that.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: I know. (To the witness) I am suggesting that you went there armed with a pistol? - Then the Prosecutor must have seen me.
THE PRESIDENT: You are to answer the questions properly.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Your transport did bring some bicycles from Dora with it, did it not? - I did not see any bicycles.
And Klippel's little party brought five with them, did they not? - That is possible; I do not know because I have not been in Klippel's party.
He said they had five bicycles and as the sixth man had not got one they walked. - I do not know of that.
Again I put it to you that the SS men from the barracks went down into Camp No. 1 on their bicycles. - I do not know; nobody called me to look at it so I do not know anything about that.
Again I put it to you that you went down into that camp on a bicycle and that you shot at and, in fact, hit and killed people in that camp. - No, I do not know anything about that. The first thing is I was a prisoner and could not have passed at all the guards; I would have been shot myself. Secondly, I never had a bicycle myself; in fact, I did not see any bicycles there at all.
Re-examined by CAPTAIN ROBERTS: You have told us that your number was not tattooed on your arm or anywhere else. Had you got your blood group tattooed on you? - Not that.
You had an armband with "L.A." meaning Lagerälteste when you were at Tettenborn. Were you still wearing that when you came to Belsen? - Yes.
It was suggested to you that the reason you were in your underpants was because you had just thrown your SS uniform away. If that had been the case would you at once have put on another SS uniform? - No, that would have been quite wrong, taking off one moment and putting on another uniform five minutes afterwards.
I think you said that you had not seen any of the SS men who are in the dock here before you came to Belsen. Are you quite sure about that? - With the exception of Hössler who I saw in Dora, and Klippel.
You said you had often seen people beaten in concentration camps. Were you ever beaten yourself? - Yes.
You told us that you were amongst a number of German prisoners selected to leave Belsen and go to the front. Did you not go with them for the very same reason that you refused to join the army five and a half years before?
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: That is really very loading.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: I do not think it will help the Court in any way if you put that question, Captain Roberts.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Very well; I will not bother.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: Where did you get that uniform you are wearing? - I received it in Celle.
What was this uniform you found in the room? What did it consist of? - It was a complete SS uniform of an Oberscharführer.
Was it tunic and trousers? - Yes.
Was it the only uniform in the room? - Yes.
Did this uniform fit you reasonably well? - The trousers were short, but the jacket fitted reasonably.
Do you know what happened to that uniform? - Yes, Obersturmführer is wearing the trousers now.
What about the jacket? - That remained in the cell when I was brought to the hospital on the 15th May.
Did this uniform fit you reasonably well? - The trousers were short.
What about the jacket? - That was fitting reasonably.
Did you wear this clothing at Belsen from the time you put it on to the time you were taken away at Celle? - Yes, I was photographed in this uniform in Celle.
You have been photographed in that uniform, have you? - Yes.
Would you look at that photograph and say whether or not you are there wearing this uniform about which you are speaking? (Photograph handed) - No; the uniform in that picture belonged to the driver. I gave my trousers to Hössler because his trousers were torn, and then the driver gave me another uniform.
When you jumped out of the window were you wearing boots or were you in your bare feet? - I was only in my socks.
Where did you get some boots from? - I received these boots from Kulessa in the room where we were taken to afterwards, and Barsch gave me a shirt.
A MEMBER OF THE COURT: You said that you spent between the 12th and 15th in reorganising people in their nationalities? - Yes.
Can you describe to us in a little more detail how you went about that? - I went to the Blockältesten and told them to report to me how many Frenchmen, how many Poles, how many Russians, how many Czechoslovakians or people of other nationalities were present in their blocks. After I received the report I knew how many Frenchmen, how many Poles, and how many other people there were. Then all had to leave the barracks and they were rearranged by nationalities.
Did that all take three days to do? - Yes, but you must imagine that there were 15000 prisoners and we had to find out first how many of each nationality there were, and there were no documents at all.
Did you have assistance beside the Blockältesten? - I had a clerk.
Did the SS personnel assist at all? - The Blockführers who were in charge of every block were present.
Did they take their instructions from you? - No, it was different. I proposed to do it to Obersturmführer Hössler and he gave orders how to do it.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions arising out of that, Captain Roberts?
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I do not know whether the Court will consider it a proper question to ask arising out of what has been asked by the Court, but when dealing with the photograph the witness said first that he was photographed in SS uniform and then he was shown the photograph and he agreed that that particular photograph was not in SS uniform. I do not know whether the Court would give me an opportunity of explaining that.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: The only object of my question, as you will appreciate, was to see if we could get any picture of him wearing the actual clothing so that we could judge the credibility of his story.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I was under the impression that you thought this was the only photograph that had been taken of him.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: It will not help us at all to tell us there are more photographs, but if anybody has a photograph which can be established as being this man in this clothing, it may or may not help the Court. It is only on that point that they would be interested.
(The accused, Oscar Schmedidzt, leaves the place from which he has given his evidence)
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: The second accused for whom I appear is number 16, Karl Flrazich. This man was one of the cooks; in fact, he was for some time the SS cook in charge of No. 3 cookhouse in the women's lager - I think No. 2 women's lager - and, if you will remember, that is the cookhouse which is divided into two halfs.
He has been accused of being involved in some fifty-four killings, and with wounding two other people. Before I call him to give his evidence, I think I should like to draw the Court's attention to what has happened to him between the date of his arrest and his appearance in Court here in Luneburg.
Throughout that time he was in prison (he went to Celle I think on the 27th April) and he has been there ever since, until he came up here. It was not until a week before this trial opened that he had any idea of the specific accusations which had been made against him.
When he was charged a little time before that, he was given a book which the Court has containing the Prosecution's affidavits which, of course, is in English and therefore meant nothing to him. As a result he has really had, to my mind, no chance which he might have had of being able to get witnesses in his favour. He knew nothing of the charges that had been made against him until very late, therefore, during all those months when he was sitting in Celle Gaol, when, had he known of these charges, he might have had enquiries made on his behalf, the witnesses he would have been able to call in his favour were vanishing to all parts of Europe. So it is that here today he is facing these very grave charges, and the only oral evidence he can produce in his favour is his own. For a man in these circumstances to have to rely on his own story to rebut the accusations which have been made is very difficult, and I do ask the Court, when considering his story, to remember that; and if there should ever be in your own minds a doubt of any sort, to give the benefit of that doubt to the accused.
I will now call Karl Flrazich.
The accused KARL FLRAZICH takes his stand at the place from which the other witnesses have given their evidence and having been duly sworn is examined by CAPTAIN ROBERTS as follows: What is your full name? - Karl Francioh.
Where and when were you born? - On the 5th October 1912 in Wriezen.
Is that in Brandenburg? - Yes.
Are you German and are you married? - Yes.
Have you any children? - Yes.
How many? - Four.
What was your job in civilian life? - I was a miner, working in a coal mine.
When did you join the SS? - On 17th April 1940.
Did you volunteer? - No, I was taken from the Wehrmacht.
Did you become a cook in the SS? - Yes.
When did you first come to Belsen? - I came to Belsen in 1945 - between the 10th and 15th March.
What did you do when you first got there? - In the first week I did nothing.
What part of the camp were you living in at that time? - We had our meals and we slept in the SS Mess.
Is that in the administrative blocks outside the Lager proper? - It is not in the proper camp. It is about 100 metres away from the Kommandant's office.
During that first week when you say you did nothing, does that mean you took no part in the SS duties? - I could do no duties. In the first place I was unfit to do guard duties and in the second place there was no room where I could be billeted if they had given me any duties.
After that first week what happened? - I went with the transport to Hamburg and I came back with another transport of sick prisoners. This took about three days.
What happened when you arrived back at Belsen? - Then they offered me a job in the kitchen in the women's compound and I took this job.
About what date did you start your duties in that cookhouse? - It was the end of March, the 27th or 28th perhaps.
How long did you work there? - I was working there for two days and then I was arrested.
What were you arrested for? - Because I went to visit my wife in Bergen without permission of the camp Kommandant.
What happened as a result of that? - I remained under arrest for two [ten] days and then I went back to the kitchen.
After that did you go and visit your wife again? - No, because then I had to do my sentence. I believe it was the 2nd April I started ten days arrest.
Where did you spend that ten days? - In the prison in Bergen-Belsen. It was the same prison that also the prisoners from the camp were put in.
Who sentenced you to that imprisonment? - Kommandant Kramer.
When you had finished that imprisonment what happened to you? - Then I worked in the kitchen again.
No. 3 Kitchen? - Yes.
Will you describe this kitchen? - The kitchen was divided into two parts. In the front part of the building was the kitchen itself, and in the back part the kitchen personnel.
Was there another half of a cookhouse similar to that? - Yes.
How far apart were those two halves of the cookhouse? - A distance of about 50 metres.
In which half of the cookhouse did you work, the half nearer to or further from the main entrance? - The part nearest to the main entrance.
Were there any internees working in the kitchen? - Yes.
How many were there altogether in the whole of No. 3 cookhouse, both halves? - I made the prisoners work in two groups, each eight hours; together there were about 68 prisoners.
In each separate half there would be about 34 prisoners working? - Yes, there were some more. For instance, a Kapo, the chap who was at the telephone, and some others who were not counted amongst the real kitchen personnel.
You said there were two shifts working in the kitchen, each eight hours. About how many prisoners were working each shift in just the one half of the kitchen? - In one shift about 13, 15, 17 were working. It depended; sometimes some were ill.
Who was in charge of each shift? - There were two SS men in charge of the cookhouse and there were two Aufseherinnen.
So that for each shift you had one SS cook and one Aufseherin, and then the other two on the other shift? - No; it was like this. In the two halves of the kitchen was one Aufseherin with the shift and one SS man in charge of both halves, so in all there were two SS men and four Aufseherinnen.
Do you recognise in Court any of those Aufseherinnen? - Yes.
What is her number? - They are sitting in the back. I cannot say [see] the numbers.
Is that one of them? (Indicating No. 39 Irene Haschke) - Yes.
Also this one? (Indicating No. 38, Frieda Walter) - Yes, and also No. 34 (Ida Förster). The fourth is not here.
You have just recognised three of the four Aufseherinnen as being present in the dock here. They were numbers 39, 38 and 34? - Yes, I recognise them.
Which of these worked in your half of the cookhouse? - 39.
Coming on to the internees who did the work, did they consider it to be a good or bad job? - I should think they thought it as an agreeable work, because such good work as in my kitchen they could not have anywhere else.
Were they men or women? - Women.
Did a lot of the women internees try and get this job? - I can say three-quarters of the camp.
Do you remember a female witness by the name of Szafran, who said that she used to work 18 hours a day in your cookhouse? - I remember.
Did any of the girls working in your cookhouse ever work 18 hours a day? - When I was responsible for the kitchen such things did not happen.
Who was your immediate superior; to whom were you responsible as cook of this cookhouse? - It was Hauptsturmführer Vogler from the administration department.
Did you have much to do with him? - No, I had mostly to do with Unterscharführer Müller. He was my next superior officer and in charge of all the kitchen personnel.
How often did you see him? - Every day.
What did you see him about? - All the rations which I received came from him. I had to check them and I had to sign for them and was responsible for them.
Did you know how many people you were expected to feed from your cookhouse? - Yes, about 16300; it was not quite always the same.
Was that your half of the cookhouse alone, or the two No. 3 combined? - No, both parts.
And how did you know that number? - Because that was the ration strength which I received for that and on that document I saw the number.
What was the official ration scale? - During the period when I was in charge in the morning half a litre coffee, but not always; for lunch one litre of soup and for dinner one litre soup as well.
Was there any bread? - Sometimes twice a week bread, sometimes weeks no bread at all, and in the latter period there was no bread altogether.
If you did not get a full issue of rations for the people you were supposed to feed from your cookhouse, what did you do about it? - Then I went to complain to Unterscharführer Müller about it.
Did that ever have any effect? - His answer was: Well, he cannot do anything about it; if he has not got it he cannot give it to me.
How many boilers did you have in the cookhouse? - Seven or eight in my kitchen.
Have you any idea of their total capacity? - I had different boilers, some of them 750 litres, some of them 450 and some of them 350 litres.
Did you have enough cooking capacity to prepare each meal from one cooking? - No, I had to prepare three meals for one sitting.
What parts of the camp did your cookhouse feed? - The whole women's compound; everywhere where women were. But apart from my kitchen also Kitchen No. 2 in the men’s compound also fed these women, the women received from No. 2 kitchen as well.
Did you feed any particular parts of the camp, or just the whole of the women generally? - The maternity home and also pregnant women got their extra food also from my kitchen.
Did you feed the hospital? - The greater part of food for the hospital came from my kitchen, but Kitchen No. 2 contributed as well something to it. Quite a lot of the food destined for the hospital did not get to the patients at all, because the nursing orderlies they did not care very much about the patients and so food was not delivered to them.
Were there any guards posted near the cookhouse ? - Yes.
Always? - Yes.
Were they Wehrmacht or SS? - In the beginning there was one SS guard who stood at the fence which was erected round the kitchen because of typhus danger or diseases. This guard stood there. Later on, when the Wehrmacht and Hungarian guards took over, then several of those stood round the kitchen.
Now take the first period, when there was an S. S. guard there. Did he do much shooting? - I cannot say very much about that time when the SS guard was there. There was nothing particular or not very much.
What about when the Wehrmacht or the Hungarians took over? - Then shooting increased from day to day.
Were there any other guard posts near that kitchen? - When food became very scarce then one night the potato shed, where potatoes, turnips and other vegetables were, was broken in and the prisoners took all that stuff away. Since then the guards were increased to four.
Were there any other guards in the neighbourhood close by? - No, but about 20 to 25 metres from my kitchen there were guards which were put around the men’s and women’s compound.
Were there any look-outs near the cookhouse? - About 25 to 30 metres distance there were look-outs.
Now I want you to think about the witness who appeared in Court and who made various accusations against you. - Yes.
First of all Dr. Bimko. (Transcript 5, pages 5 and 10). Now she accused you of shooting a woman who was bending down to pick up a few peelings of potatoes on the day before the British arrived. What have you got to say about that? - The first thing which I have to answer Dr. Bimko is that on that day which she mentions I was not in the camp at all. Secondly, I still have my good senses and I would not dream of shooting a woman who is bending down to take some potato peelings, to take my pistol and to shoot her.
Do you remember Dr. Bimko in the camp? - I do not know that woman.
Had you ever seen her before she appeared in this Court? - No.
Can you give any explanation why she should make this accusation against her [you]? - Yes, I can explain that, because when I prepared food for the hospitals this food was standing in front of the kitchen for hours without being fetched by the orderlies of the hospital, therefore I had quite a lot of quarrels with the hospital personnel. Prisoners who were quite weak and could hardly walk came then and said: "We are coming to fetch the food for the hospital", but on the other hand patients themselves, feverish and weak, they came into the kitchen and said: "We are hungry; we want something to eat; we do not get our food." So the orderlies did not worry at all about the food distribution. That went on day for day and even for evenings. Then a few days before the British troops arrived Müller, accompanied by two Aufseherinnen, who unfortunately are not here, went on inspection and they inspected the hospital block, and they found whole loaves of bread which were already gone bad, and fat and margarine and sugar which had not been distributed. The doctors who were working in the hospitals and the orderlies, they got fatter and fatter and the patients in their care were dying day by day.
Now I want you to turn your mind to the evidence of Dora Szafran (Transcript 7, page 28, and transcript 8, pages 10 to 12). - Yes.
She accused you, with another person, of shooting some 50 prisoners after the British troops had arrived. What have you to say about that? - I have to answer that when the British troops came in I was not in the camp any more. I stood with my wife in front of the Kommandant's office and went with her to Bergen.
Why did you do that? - Because my wife prepared her luggage and we made ourselves ready to go away.
Could you have gone with her? - Yes, I could have done so.
Why did you not? - Because of love for the prisoners. They said I should not go, and nothing can happen to me, and so I stayed on.
This witness Dora Szafran said she worked in your cookhouse. Do you remember her? - Not when I was there.
The day after the British troops arrived, what did you do then? - I was working in the kitchen. The Brigadier came into the kitchen and gave me orders to carry on until I was relieved.
Did he speak to anybody else in the cookhouse? - He spoke with a Kapo called Erika, but I do not know her other name.
What was that Kapo in charge of? - The Kapo was in charge of the prisoners and she was also present when food was distributed and whatever the Kapo said was an order for the prisoners.
What did the Brigadier say to her? - He asked the Kapo how I behaved towards the prisoners. Her answer was that the prisoners were satisfied with me and that I behaved well; that is when the Brigadier told me that I should carry on until I would be relieved. I was working then until the last moment until I was arrested - I do not remember the date, but I believe it was the 17th or 18th April.
How many other SS cooks continued to work after the British troops arrived? - As far as I know, I alone.
Now you said that the day the British troops arrived you went out of the camp to help your wife pack. When did you return to the camp? - The next morning for duty, 0400 hours.
The next witness is Helene [Ilona] Stein (Transcript 9 page 15 and pages 20 to 22). - I do not remember.
She was the witness who said that a few days before the British troops arrived she was carrying an empty container with a friend of hers towards your kitchen and you suddenly came out of the kitchen and shot her dead? - I do not remember such an incident, and during the time I have been in charge of the kitchen I have never shot any woman.
She also accused you of shooting and wounding three other women; is that true? - No, that is not true. If I had behaved in such a way then certainly somebody of the kitchen personnel would have gone to the Brigadier and would have complained about it, but nobody did so.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: What was your last reference?
THE PRESIDENT: Pages 20 to 22; that was your cross examination.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Yes, that is correct. If you look at the foot of page 15 she says: "Not only on that day did I hear shootings but on any other days. My own friend was shot through her arm near her shoulder and two others were taken away by ambulance".
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: She is talking about the same women when she says that. She has always said one and two; one killed and two wounded.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: This is what I took at the time: "Two other girls were shot and taken away by ambulance. One was shot near the shoulder. This might have been the same day. I remember the other one being shot. I saw both incidents. I was about 10 metres away".
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: That is in cross examination.
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: That is the incident he has been denying, is it?
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: Yes. The next witness was Lidia Sunschein, transcript 11, pages 18 and 21. (To the witness) She said that about two months before the British arrived, possibly the end of February or the beginning of March, you went to No. 2 Cookhouse to learn the job, and during that time you beat the prisoners terribly? - I have to answer that at that period mentioned I have not been in the camp at all, because I arrived only about the 10th or 15th, and apart from that I had been in Kitchen No. 2 only for a day or two, only to see how things are run, and I had nothing to say there at all, and I have to add that Lidia Sunschein was a Kapo. This Lidia Sunschein I have to add she had a leather strap, belt, of the length of three quarters of a metre, and she had to use it very frequently because the men prisoners came always and tried to steal the food and so therefore she herself beat people very frequently.
Did you beat the prisoners in cookhouse No. 2 terribly so they were trembling when you came? - I have hardly seen kitchen No. 2 at all, let alone that I should have beaten kitchen personnel; I have never beaten kitchen personnel.
Now I will go on to the affidavits. The first one is the affidavit of Irene Löffler, exhibit 58, page 99, paragraph 4. That affidavit accuses you of shooting dead a Russian girl one day in February near an unspecified kitchen. What have you got to say about that? - The first thing is that in February I did not know even of the existence of Bergen-Belsen, and second, such an incident in the vicinity of my kitchen never took place.
Is it true or untrue? - No, untrue.
The next one is the affidavit of Maria Neumann, exhibit 67, page 115, paragraph 3. This woman accuses you in March, 1944, of shooting a woman outside No. 1 Kitchen at Belsen camp. She says she got an injection from Dr. Klein to give to the victim. What have you got to say about that? - I cannot understand the whole occurrence because here in the affidavit this woman says the woman died after about 30 minutes. How could she get to Dr. Klein and how could she get the injection; I cannot understand that.
Did you or did you not shoot this woman? - No, I have not.
The last one is the affidavit of Helena Koper, exhibit 110, page 48, paragraph 10. Koper says a week before the British Flrazich shot a pregnant woman in the arm and she later died? - The first things is I never shot a pregnant woman and the second thing is pregnant women did not need come to my kitchen for food because they got extra handed to them. She says here that this pregnant woman was living with her in the same block. That is quite impossible because they were separated.
What do you mean "they were separated"? - Because pregnant women went to the maternity home.
Did they come and collect their food from the maternity home? - No, there were other people who fetched and brought the food to them.
She goes on to say: "My block was next to the kitchen and I saw Flrazich shooting repeatedly at the internees many of whom fell down and were flung on to a heap." How near to your kitchen was the nearest block? - This block was behind the kitchen and it was impossible for her to see anything from her block.
How far away was it? - In my opinion about 150 or 200 metres.
Did you repeatedly shoot at the internees? - I said before that I never shot in Bergen-Belsen anybody.
When you arrived at Belsen, did you receive any orders as to how you should treat the prisoners? - No.
Did anybody tell you about the purpose of the camp, why it was there? - No, I did not know that. I knew only that there were all sick prisoners.
Did anybody tell you to ill treat them? - No.
Did you have a pistol? - Yes.
Did you carry it when you were working in your kitchen? - Not when I was on duty.
Did you carry it when you were in the kitchen off duty? - No.
When did you carry it? - When I was off duty and went to Bergen, for instance, to see my wife.
Cross-examined by MAJOR WINWOOD: Could you tell us how exactly the food got from the cookhouse to the blocks? - The containers were filled and were put in front of the kitchen, outside. Then prisoners, if they were strong enough, carried it to their respective blocks, and for this service they got half a litre of soup, and before the container reached the block it was destined for it was half empty.
After the food had actually left the cookhouse the distribution was left to the internees; is that correct? - Yes.
Was your cookhouse actually working the last four or five days before the British troops entered? - My kitchen was working until the moment I was arrested.
MAJOR MUNRO: No questions.
MAJOR CRANFIELD: No questions.
CAPTAIN BROWN: No questions.
Cross-examined by CAPTAIN FIELDEN: Would No. 22 stand up? (The accused Ansgar Pichen stands up) Do you know No. 22? - Yes.
Where did you first meet him? - The first time I met him at Blechhammer. That is a detachment camp belonging to Auschwitz.
When was this? - December, 1944.
Did you and No. 22 leave Blechhammer together? - No, I was in the prison of Auschwitz doing duties as an SS man at that time when the camp was evacuated.
When did you next see this man after you left Blechhammer? - I saw him in the concentration camp at Gross Rosen. Where it is I do not know.
Do you know when he arrived there? - It might have been the 20th or 21st February, 1945.
Did you leave Gross Rosen together? - Yes, together to Bergen-Belsen.
When did you leave Gross Rosen? - It might have been the 25th or 28th February.
When did you arrive at Bergen-Belsen? - Between the 10th and 15th March.
Did this man on any occasion describe where he had been and what he had done? - Yes, he told me so In Blechhammer.
Did he tell you where he had been before he was at Blechhammer? - He was at the Russian front and there he was wounded and then he came to the hospital in Neustadt.
Did he say where he had gone after Neustadt? - He was transferred from Neustadt to Blechhammer as a guard for P.O.W.
Did he say when he had arrived from Blechhammer? - No.
Did he say he had ever been at Dora concentration camp? - No, he did not say so.
Did he tell you he had ever worked in a bathhouse? - No.
Do you remember a day shortly before the liberation of Belsen camp when a parade of all the SS men was called? - I remember.
Did you go on that parade with No. 22? - Yes, he was there as well.
What time did the parade assemble? - About noon.
How long did it last? - Perhaps half an hour.
Had No. 22 been on duty before the parade was called? - I do not know; he told me he did not feel very well.
Did you hear any sounds of shooting whilst the parade was being held? - Yes.
Where did the shots appear to be coming from? - From the guards.
Which guards? - In my opinion SS guards and Wehrmacht guards.
Was it possible for an SS man working in a cookhouse not in the women's Lager to move about inside the women's Lager? - If he had a pass then he could move about.
CAPTAIN CORBALLY: No questions.
Cross-examined by CAPTAIN NEAVE: Would No. 34 stand up? (The accused Ida Förster stands up) You said you recognised this woman as working in No. 3 Kitchen? - Yes.
She did not work in the same part of No. 3 Kitchen as you, did she? - No.
While you were working in No. 3 Kitchen approximately how many times did you see this woman; did you see her every day? - I saw her a few times every day; several times.
Did you see her carrying a rubber tube and beating prisoners with that rubber tube? - In my kitchen it was not done that SS women went about with rubber tubes and beat prisoners.
When you say: "In my kitchen" do you mean the two parts of No. 3 Kitchen? - Yes.
Cross-examined by CAPTAIN PHILLIPS: Was Kitchen No. 3 wired off from the rest of the women's camp? - Yes.
Was there any concrete ponds near No. 3 Kitchen? - Yes.
Were those inside the wire or outside the wire? - Inside.
How near to the kitchen itself? - About 300 metres. [Comment: One is 130 metres and the other is 110 metres]
LIEUTENANT BOYD: No questions.
CAPTAIN MUNRO: No questions.
LIEUTENANT JEDRZEJOWICZ: No questions.
Cross-examined by COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Let us just try and fill in this gap between the 17th April, 1940, and the time you reached Belsen. You joined the SS in April, 1940? - Yes.
Had you been serving in the Wehrmacht before that? - Before I had a training of six weeks but there was no war at that time.
No war in April, 1940, or do you mean training before the war? - I had my training before the war.
I understood you to say earlier that you were taken from the Wehrmacht before you were called up for the SS Perhaps you will just explain what you mean? - On the 17th April I was conscripted to the Wehrmacht. 500 to 600 men reported at 0500 hours. 300 to 400 men were sent to Gleiwitz and the remainder sent to Posen.
What I am interested in is knowing how did you got into the SS? - There was no room any more in the Wehrmacht and, therefore, we were sent to Posen to the SS
Let me suggest to you it was just the other way round, that at that time the Wehrmacht were borrowing men from the SS? - I was sent from the Wehrmacht to the SS
I suggest to you that in April, 1940, there was only one way into the SS and that was to volunteer for the SS? - I do not know; I had a conscription order; I had to go to the Wehrmacht at Gleiwitz.
Then having got there did you not volunteer for the SS? - I did not know that I should be going to the SS
Did you not come before a board before you were admitted to the SS? - No.
Did you not have to take a special oath when you joined the SS? - I took the oath in Posen with the SS
Where were you first posted? - I stayed in Posen up to August in the kitchen; I was working in the kitchen as an SS man.
Is that August, 1940 you are talking about? - Yes.
Then where were you posted to? - Then I was transferred to Auschwitz as a cook.
In which part of Auschwitz did you serve? - In the beginning in the kitchen for the troops, S. S. troops, and later on in the officers’ kitchen; officers' mess kitchen.
How many officers were there then? - About 50 officers.
Was Kramer there then? - I do not remember.
Who was Kommandant of the camp? - Obersturmbannführer Hoess.
How many guard companies were there? - Birkenau included two battalions.
I am still talking of the period when you first went there in August, 1940. - One battalion was in Auschwitz which included Birkenau where there was another battalion, which made two, but in Auschwitz there was one battalion only.
About how many prisoners were there there, internees? - I do not know.
About how many? - I do not know because I did not know really the camp at all; I hardly saw the prisoners at that time.
What were the buildings of the camp like then; were they wooden or were they stone? - Stone barracks.
How long did you stay at Auschwitz? - Winter 1944.
Which part of the camp were you employed in? - I did not work in the camp at all; I was working in the officers' mess and that was outside the camp.
When did you go to Blechhammer? - In winter 1944; I believe in the month of December
Is that the same time that Kramer left Auschwitz too? - I do not know.
Did you never see Kramer at Auschwitz? - I saw him once in the officers’ mess, but what he was doing or where he was working I do not know. Those officers who lived in Auschwitz they took their meals also in the officers' mess.
Did you see Hössler there? - I saw Hössler because he lived there.
Tell me a little more about Blechhammer, will you? - Should I describe Blechhammer?
Will you tell me what the S. S. were doing in Blechhammer? - SS brought the prisoners to the working sites where they were working, and then they stood guard.
What SS unit was it that was at Blechhammer? - Auschwitz.
Who was in command of it? - Untersturmführer Klipp.
What was the number of the Stalag there? - I do not know what "stalag" is.
What was the number of the prisoner of war camp there? - There were several P.O.W. camps.
Was Klipp in command of them all? - There was only one concentration camp for prisoners and Klipp was in command of that particular camp.
There were a lot of British prisoners in there, were there not? - In the concentration camp there were no British prisoners.
Was not Klipp commanding the camp with British prisoners in it? - No.
What was Pichen doing there? - He was doing guard duties.
Were the prisoners working at the foundry? - There was no foundry there.
What were the prisoners doing then? - They were working at the petrol dump.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Synthetic oil, is it?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: How were the prisoners treated? - Very well. They had their food from the working site and had, in fact, nothing to do with Auschwitz at all.
How long did you stay there? - Until January 1945.
Where did you go in January 1945? - I was arrested and put in a prison in Auschwitz.
How long were you in prison at Auschwitz? - 21 days.
When did you say you were arrested? - January.
Did you serve 21 days in Auschwitz in January? - Not quite, because on the 18th January the camp was evacuated.
Where did you go then? - Gross Rosen.
Where exactly is Gross Rosen? - In Silesia. I do not know any big town there because they are only small villages. But I know there is a big quarry there in the neighbourhood of Gross Rosen.
Did the prisoners work in the quarry? - Yes.
What was your duty there? - My duties there were to bring S. S. men who deserted to Gross Rosen.
What was your rank at that time? - Unterscharführer, about full Corporal.
How were the prisoners treated at Gross Rosen? - I arrived at night at Gross Rosen and left Gross Rosen the next morning to Blechhammer.
Is that the only time you were there? - No, I returned to Gross Rosen later.
Where did you go to in the meantime? - I went to Blechhammer to fetch all my personal belongings because the camp was being evacuated.
When did you get back to Gross Rosen? - About 20th, 21st or 22nd February.
Did you meet Pichen again there? - Yes.
When had you last seen him? - The whole time until we arrived in Bergen.
When had you last seen him before you saw him at Gross Rosen the second time? - Before I was arrested in Auschwitz.
So you did not see him at all in January and most of February? - Yes, in February only when I arrived at Gross Rosen.
Gross Rosen was a very severe camp indeed, was it not? - I have no right picture about Gross Rosen because it was a concentration of several camps, and everything was so overcrowded, prisoners and SS people, that I have no proper recollection of it.
Tell me more about when you got to Belsen. Why did you do nothing at all for the first week? - There was no work for me.
That being about the second or third week in March, according to you; is that right? - Yes.
People were dying all round you by that time, were they not? - I did not know that because I had not been in that part of the camp at all.
Nobody could find a job for you? - Later on I got work in the kitchen.
You remember that Sunschein said that first of all you went into her kitchen to learn the job; is that right? - Yes.
Then she said that you were only there for a short time; is that right? - Only for two days, about two or three hours per day. On the third day I went over to my own kitchen.
Will No. 41 stand up? (Gertrude Sauer) Was that woman one of the Aufseherinnen in that cookhouse? - I do not know her.
By that do you mean you do not know whether she was or not, or you do not know her because she was not? - I do not know her at all.
Would you recognise the two Aufseherinnen who were in that kitchen if you saw them? - I only know one here who was in Kitchen No. 2.
Who is that? - Hempel. (No. 44)
Do you remember that one of the Aufseherinnen used to supervise the peeling of potatoes in that kitchen? - I only know that Hempel was Aufseherin in the kitchen. The other one I do not know.
You say that Sunschein beat people with a leather belt, do you? - Yes.
Did you stop her? - I could not stop her, because I could not stop a Kapo.
Why? As an S. S. man were you frightened of the Kapos? - No, because I had no influence in the kitchen too; there was an Oberscharführer who had power in that kitchen.
Who was he? - I cannot remember his name.
Did he interfere and stop this beating? - I did not seen him interfering.
As a matter of fact, you both did it, did you not? - I said already that I have beaten no prisoners in that kitchen.
Did not Hempel beat people in that kitchen too? - In Kitchen No. 2 the prisoners were put to work and then it was not necessary to beat them. Hempel also did not beat them.
Apart from Sunschein did you see nobody else beating anybody at all? - I have seen very many who were beating.
You have seen very many who were beating, have you? - Yes, the prisoners were always fighting among each other because they were hungry.
Come to when you went to your own cookhouse. You have told us what the rations scale for each prisoner was. What in fact used you to get into that cookhouse each day? What amount of food and what kind of food came in? - As long as there was enough water and we could do the cooking properly the prisoners got all their ration, half a litre of coffee in the morning, one litre of soup ...
That is not what I am asking you at all. You have told us about that. What I want to know is what came to your cookhouse; not what came for each prisoner. What was the total bulk each day, and what was it composed of, before you started cooking it? - The rations I got in my kitchen were rather scarce, and it was scarcely sufficient to cook for all the prisoners.
That still is not in relation to what I am asking. What I am asking is what in fact you got. We will take it in stages, if you like. Did you get any potatoes? - In the first period we had some potatoes, later on there were no potatoes at all.
Let us take the first period. What weight of potatoes did you get each day? - 200 kilogrammes in each boiler.
There are seven boilers. - Each contained 200 pounds and there were seven containers.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: I think the translation is wrong. I think he said 200 to 300 kilos.
THE INTERPRETER: He corrected himself. He said "Not 100 kilos but 50".
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Let us get it clear this way if we can. How were the potatoes brought to your cookhouse? - They were mashed.
How were they brought there. Did they walk or did somebody carry them, or did they come in a motorcar? - They were large containers on cars, and they were brought in these containers.
How much weight of potatoes was there in each container? - There were containers with 25 litres and there were containers with 50 litres.
And how many containers did you get each day? - I can not say exactly, because one day we had rather much and the other day we had very little.
On a day when you had rather much how many containers did you have? - 10 to 15 containers.
That is on a day when you had rather a lot? - Yes.
We have dealt with potatoes. What other sort of food did you get? - I received turnips, I received flour, sometimes it was much and sometimes it was little.
Did you receive anything else? - No.
About how many turnips would you get on a day when you got much? - Three to four cart loads, each of 15 to 20 containers.
That is all you got on a day when you got much to feed 16000 people, is it? - Yes.
What weight of coffee did you get each day? - I had about 300 to 400 kilograms in my store.
How long did that have to last? - For about a week.
How much weight of coffee did you use a day? - I cannot say exactly.
You were a cook, and you were supposed to be a trained cook; Cannot you say how much coffee you used in that kitchen in a day? - In the time that I was in the kitchen we had practically no coffee. We only made it once or twice, therefore, I cannot say how much we used.
So it was only about once or twice that the prisoners got any whilst you were there, was it? - Yes, that was because we had no water. We had scarcely enough water to cook the mid-day meals.
Tell us about this quarrel which you had with the people in the hospital. You were asked why Dr. Bimko should say something against you, and you said you quarrelled with them. Do you say that the people in the hospital - the doctors and the orderlies - were getting fat whilst the patients were starving? - Yes, one could say that.
Do you remember what Dr. Klein said about them when he gave evidence: "I told also the doctors and orderlies who seemed to be also very much in need of nourishment - they were all badly undernourished - that they should take for two of them one tin of each of these enumerated things". Was Dr. Klein wrong about that? - If they had all been under nourished we would not have had so many corpses in Belsen.
Is Dr. Klein wrong when he said all the doctors and medical orderlies were badly in need of nourishment and were all badly under-nourished? - Yes, because I personally saw these medical orderlies.
Is Dr. Klein's story about calling a meeting of them and seeing them all wrong? - I do not know. I had nothing to do with Dr. Klein.
I thought you were suggesting that he had not seen them but you had? - I have seen them. I do not know if Dr. Klein has seen them.
With regards to these women Irene Haschke, Ida Förster, and Walter, they were all Aufseherinnen working under you, but who was the fourth Aufseherin? - She fell ill and went to hospital. I do not know her name.
About how many weeks were you actually cooking in this cookhouse? - At the utmost two weeks.
Who was in charge of it before you took over? - It was another Unterscharführer and he was sent to the front.
Who took it over when you were put under arrest? - The other cook took it all by himself then, and the man in charge of Kitchen 4 helped him.
Was the other cook you are talking about called Jenner? - Yes.
Who was in charge of Cookhouse No. 4? - An Oberscharführer - I cannot remember his name.
I suggest to you that from the first day you arrived in Belsen you carried your pistol all the time? - That is not correct. I only had my pistol off duty.
Did you not think your pistol was much more likely to be necessary inside a camp full of starving people than outside going down to see your wife? - No; all the time I have been in concentration camps I never took revenge upon a prisoner, also I never beat them severely.
But did you not carry your revolver or pistol in Belsen? - I did wear my revolver but not when I was on duty.
Was it not precisely to wear on duty that you were given it? - It was too much trouble to take the pistol with me and, in the second place, it would have been in the way to carry it in the kitchen all the time.
Why? You did not work in the kitchen, did you? You only supervised, did you not? - Why did I not work?
Did you not simply supervise in the kitchen? - I worked just the same way at the boilers as the other prisoners.
They put several guards around the kitchen, did they not, according to you? - Yes.
And there was a fair amount of shooting by those guards, was there not? - Yes, very much shooting.
Why did you take your firearm off just when you went to the place where the other guards had to do shooting? - Those guards were always shooting and I tried to stop them. I asked one of these Hungarians who had ordered him to shoot and he said his officer had told him to shoot whenever a prisoner came into the neighbourhood of the kitchen, even if he had to shoot down all of the women’s camp.
Why were the Wehrmacht and the Hungarians so much more severe than the SS? - Because there was mutiny in the camp; they had to shoot.
What I am suggesting to you is that it became quite a favourite amusement with the SS to shoot hungry prisoners around the kitchen? - I do not know. In my kitchen no SS man has been shooting.
There were quite a few people who said you always carried a gun and that you were always doing the shooting? - I think they are all people who tried to get food from my kitchen and did not get anything and now they are taking their revenge.
Lothe in her affidavit told us about the girl who was just trying to take a piece of peel and was shot - a Russian girl? - It is not true.
Maria Neuman told a very similar story when on another occasion you shot a woman outside the kitchen? - I cannot give any information about that. I can only say I did not shoot any women in the women’s compound.
You remember Stein's account about how she and her friend approached any you started shooting at the group and Stein ran away but her friend was shot? - Yes, I remember.
Do you remember her saying that she did not actually see you shoot her friend, she saw you coming out and shooting and then her friend was killed, and you were the only person there who was do any shooting, but she did not actually see you kill her friend. If she was exaggerating, do you not think she would have said that she actually saw you shoot her friend? - It is possible that she saw somebody shooting but it cannot have been me.
Do you remember the day before the British came? - Yes.
Why do you say that you were not in the kitchen that day? - Because I was in Bergen. I went to Kommandant Kramer and asked for leave and because I received leave I went to Bergen.
You were away all day, were you not? - Yes, I was all day on leave.
The day before the British came with the camp in the condition it was and the few SS men left, do you really mean that Kramer gave you leave for the day? - Yes, that is true. I must say that I liked my wife more than all the concentration camp.
Although only ten days before he had put you under arrest for going out because you might spread typhus? - Yes.
If you are right you were only in this kitchen about two days, were you not? - I do not know.
Well, think; according to you you started work in the cookhouse on the 27th or 28th; after working for two days you were arrested, then you were released from arrest after two days, but you were put back into ten days arrest on the 2nd April, so you can only have had ten days, you came out of arrest on the 12th and on leave on the 14th? - I have been working at least four days in the kitchen. If it is not true what I am saying my cookhouse personnel had better come to this Court and tell the Court what I have been doing in this Kitchen No. 3.
May I suggest some of the people are telling what you have been doing there. Do you remember Dr. Bimko? - Yes.
She says that on the day before the British arrived you shot another woman dead who was trying to take a potato peeling? - Yes, I remember.
You remember Dr. Bimko in the witness box, do you not? - Yes, I remember her.
Is that not true? - If I tell the Court that I would not shoot a woman just because of a potato peel, I ask the Court to believe me.
That is what the other guards were doing, was it not? - I cannot judge what the other guards did.
That is what they were doing, was it not? - Yes, they had been shooting.
Do you remember the day when you had this parade of all the SS men about noon? - Yes.
Was it actually the day when the British came or the day before it? - I cannot remember which day it was. I only know it was at noon.
Surely you can remember whether it was the day when the British came or the day before that? - If I could remember I would tell you, but I really cannot remember.
CAPTAIN ROBERTS: My interpreter tells me that the witness said it might have been two days before.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: Did he say that?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it might have been two days or it might have been the same day.
COLONEL BACKHOUSE: (To the witness) It might have been one day or it might have been two days or it might have been the day the British actually came in? - Yes.
Who looked after the kitchen while you were away? - Jenner.
Was Jenner was in the S. S. too? - Yes, he was an SS man.
Why did he not attend the parade? - I do not know.
I suggest to you that the two of you came back - not necessarily Jenner - to the cookhouse and finding some internees around you began to shoot? - I did not go back.
You know the prisoner Koper, do you? - Yes.
Did you know her at Belsen? - Yes.
You have already read what she says about you, have you not? - Yes.
Is it true that you used to stand on the steps? - No, I was not always standing there.
Did you often stand there? - No, I had to work in the kitchen and not to stand on the steps.
When the food was being given out, did you not stand on the steps and watch it? - It was a Kapo who was standing there to distribute the food.
You remember the witness Szafran who came along and told us about your shooting the day the British came? - Yes, I remember her very well.
Was Jenner shooting from the other kitchen? - I cannot say he had been shooting because I was not there. Jenner told me there had been some shooting. There had been shooting from the watch tower with a machine gun and also four guards had been shooting and there were some people killed.
When did you think of that? - I did not think of that at all.
You have not mentioned that before, have you? - Because I have not been asked about it.
Did he not actually shoot someone just as the first British tanks, came through? - I do not know.
Jenner did quite a lot of shooting, did he not? - I do not know.
Did he not actually shoot someone even after the British had arrived? - I do not think that anybody would have dared to shoot after the arrival of the British troops ...
I mean just as the first British tanks came through; did he not shoot then? - I do not know if he shot then.
Was Jenner a friend of yours? - No, he was not a friend; he had the same job in the kitchen as I had.
Tell us about this time when Brigadier Glyn Hughes came in to see you. What day was that? - That was on the next day.
When Brigadier Glyn Hughes spoke to you it was a Kapo who replied and said you were all right, was it? - Yes.
Do you mean the 16th? - Yes.
You said you arrived at four o'clock in the morning. Was that your usual hour to start work in the kitchen? - We started at 0410 hours, but if there was an air rail alarm we had to wait until six.
When Brigadier Glyn Hughes spoke to you it was a Kapo who replied and said you were all right, was it? - Yes.
You heard Brigadier Glyn Hughes tell the Court what the attitude of the ordinary prisoner was when an SS man was present, even after the liberation, did you not? - Not in my kitchen.
You told us that people liked working in the kitchen. That was because it was almost their only chance of surviving, was it? - No.
They got blows anywhere in the camp, did they not, whether it was in the cookhouse or out of it? - If I wanted to punish prisoners I punished them by giving them extra work or by removing them from the kitchen. I did not give them beatings as a punishment. There has been no beating in my kitchen at all. They were treated good and they had their food.
Did you see any S.S man or woman beating in that camp? - I have seen SS people beating, yes.
At Belsen? - Yes.
Often? - No, if there was something by accident they gave them a thrashing and that was all.
Re-examined by CAPTAIN ROBERTS: As long as you continued to work in No. 3 Kitchen after the arrival of the British troops, did Brigadier Glyn Hughes come into the kitchen every day? - He came every day. It was the kitchen that received the most rations and it had to hand out the most food.
Did he talk to anybody when he came in? - He was sometimes accompanied by a Captain.
I said did he talk to anybody when he came in the kitchen? - He often talked to the kitchen personnel.
Did he address any of them by name? - Yes, the Kapo.
Is that the Kapo Erika? - Yes.
Was Pichen on this parade which Kramer held of all SS people? - Yes, he was also there.
Do you know where he went after the parade? - I do not know. I told you that he said he did not feel very well; he wanted to go to the doctor, but whether he went to the doctor or do his work I do not know.
(The accused leaves the place from which he has given his evidence.)