War Crimes Trials - Vol. II The Belsen Trial. 'The Trial of Josef Kramer and Forty Four Others'

Brigadier HUGH LLEWELYN GLYN HUGHES, C.B.E., D.S.O., M.C., sworn, examined by Colonel Backhouse - I am Vice-Director of Medical Services, British Army of the Rhine, and in April of this year was Deputy Director of Medical Services, 2nd Army. Shortly before 15th April of this year, certain German Officers came to the Headquarters of 8 Corps and asked for a truce in respect of Belsen Camp, which was arranged. On 15th April Lieutenant-Colonel Taylor took over the administration of the camp and I followed him there. When I arrived I found him interrogating Kommandant Kramer, and later on the same evening I saw the medical officer, Dr. Klein. I identify these accused. We made a preliminary survey of the camp straight away and on the next day a complete investigation. For the next two or three days I was engaged in organizing relief measures.

I would like to get a general description of the camp? - It is situated between the villages of Bergen and Vincen [Winsen/Aller], some 15 miles north of Celle, and is quite separate. It consisted of an administrative area nearest the road, and beyond that a wired-in perimeter including a large number of huts, chiefly wooden, of various sizes. The camp was divided into five compounds and there was a main road running through the middle.

Did you ask for and receive the numbers of persons interned in the camp? - Yes. Not including Camp No. 2, there were approximately 41000, made up of 28185 women and roughly 12000 men. There were three compounds for men, one small and one very large compound for women, and there were five cookhouses.

What water supply was there? - The huts had had water laid on but it was not functioning, and in addition there were large concrete ponds in the camp near the cookhouses.

Was there an administrative block? - Yes, the Kommandant’s office, huts for the guards, a small ablution hut, a larger disinfestation building of stone, and very near to the prison area a hut with barred windows.

Was there any crematorium? - Yes, at the very end of the prison area was a small crematorium.

Would you describe in your own words the general state of the camp? - The conditions in the camp were really indescribable; no description nor photograph could really bring home the horrors that were there outside the huts, and the frightful scenes inside were much worse. There were various sizes of piles of corpses lying all over the camp, some outside the wire and some in between the huts. The compounds themselves had bodies lying about in them. The gutters were full and within the huts there were uncountable numbers of bodies, some even in the same bunks as the living. Near the crematorium were signs of filled-in mass graves, and outside to the left of the bottom compound was an open pit half-full of corpses. It had just been begun to be filled. Some of the huts had bunks but not many, and they were filled absolutely to overflowing with prisoners in every state of emaciation and disease. There was not room for them to lie down at full length in each hut. In the most crowded there were anything from 600 to 1000 people in accommodation which should only have taken 100.

Would you describe the scene inside one of these huts when you went into it? - There were no bunks in a hut in the women’s compound which was containing the typhus patients. They were lying on the floor and were so weak they could hardly move. There was practically no bedding. In some cases there was a thin mattress, but some had none. Some had blankets and some had none. Some had no clothing at all and just draped themselves in blankets, and some had German hospital type of clothing. That was the general picture.

What was the state of sanitation? - There was none. The conditions were indescribable because most of the internees were suffering from some form of gastroenteritis and they were too weak to leave the hut. The lavatories in the huts had long been out of use. In the women’s compound there was a deep trench with a pole over it but no screening or form of privacy at all. Those who were strong enough could get into the compound: others performed their natural actions from where they were. The compounds were absolutely one mass of human excreta. In the huts themselves the floors were covered, and the people in the top bunks who could not get out just poured it on to the bunks below.

What was the general state of nutrition of people in the camp? - Extreme emaciation and complete malnutrition of all those who had been there for any length of time at all. Only those admitted within the last week were in a reasonable state of health.

Having taken a general picture of the camp, I would like you to go through the compounds in more detail? - No. 1 Compound in the men’s quarters was a smallish compound and conditions were exactly the same as I have described already, except that perhaps the typhus there had begun to decline. No. 2 was the worst of the men’s compounds. I think there were about 8000 there and conditions were very bad. The worst I have described equalled it and typhus was rife. No. 3 was the last of the men’s compounds and was much smaller and had fewer men in it. I think it had only begun to fill up and conditions were better.

Now take the women’s compound? - No. 2 was on the same side as those three I have described, to the left of the camp. This, although small, had about 6000 in it. The conditions here were infinitely worse. They were absolutely frightful. No. 1 Compound was very large and contained between 22 and 23000 women. The huts were set amongst trees and conditions here were frightful, but perhaps not quite as bad as No. 2 Women’s Compound. In this compound there was a very large pile of corpses.

Was there any particular hut in that compound which you could describe? - In Hut No. 208, which was close to the pile of corpses, there were dead women lying in the passage, which was so full that no women could lie down straight. The main room on the left of the passage was one mass of bodies and you could not get another into it. The inmates were in a state of extreme emaciation and women were dying frequently.

Out of 23000 how many were acutely ill? - 17000 required to be in hospital immediately if they were to be saved, and of these a large number were so ill they had no chance of recovery.

For those 17000 acutely ill women how many bunks were there? - 474 in the huts which were supposedly set aside as a hospital, organised by the internees themselves.

Had there been the slightest attempt by the camp staff to organise anything for these sick people? - I saw none, except that in the administrative area there was a store of drugs and medicines. They were not supplied in adequate numbers.

Were there any children in or about this compound? - There was a small compound of children who were in fairly good condition, and obviously the women internees had sacrificed themselves to look after them. The hospital compound in that area was very well run by the internee doctors - very well run.

Were the bodies on the pile in the compound clothed? - Some, but mostly naked. It was a very long pile and quite high and must have contained many hundreds. It was very close and in sight of the children’s compound

Could, you give details of the medical supplies? - There were quite large stocks in the store, but one issue I was told by the chief doctor there, was 300 aspirin tablets for 17000 sick people for one week. I do not think there were any large quantities of disinfectant available and no anti-louse powder was issued. I found a large number of Red Cross boxes sent by Jewish Associations for the Jews. I was told that no issue of the contents had been made except an occasional issue of sweets to the children. The boxes contained meat extracts and food of all kinds, biscuits, milk. There was some stealing of meat by, the Hungarian soldiers while I was there.

What was the food supply in the camp? - At the time of entry practically nil - at the most, one meal a day of watery stew made of vegetables.

What was the method of distribution? - In large metal containers which were very heavy. There had been no bread for a fortnight and no water for rather a shorter time, and there appeared to be absolutely no method of ensuring that each person got their share. When a man or woman got too weak to fetch for themselves and their friends became indifferent through their own condition, then they got none.

What water, if at all, was there available to the internees? - Just the water laid on in the wash-places in each hut and the concrete ponds which they were not allowed to go to and which, I imagine, were meant for cooking purposes. As the water in the huts was not working I understand the internees got none at all for the last five or six days.

Taking the camp as a whole, can you give the Court any summary of the general health condition? - I appreciated that of the inhabitants 70 per cent. required hospitalisation, and that of these at least 10000 would die before they could be put in hospital. There were 10000 corpses in the camp when we arrived there. Every form of disease was prevalent, but the ones mainly responsible for the frightful conditions were typhus, starvation and tuberculosis. The cause of the disease was the privation and suffering which they had gone through. Typhus was brought in on 5th February by Hungarian prisoners, and it then raged right through the camp, where conditions were absolutely suitable for it. The same with tuberculosis.

In your considered opinion for what period at the least must conditions have been bad in that camp to have produced the results that you saw? - Including the last five or six days it would take several months to produce death in people who were fit and well. What the condition of the prisoners was who were admitted I do not know, but if they were not robust it would have been a matter of a short time. But I should have said, with reasonable health, two or three months.

Will you describe what we call Camp No. 2? - Camp No. 2 was occasioned by the overflow of 15133 men who were put in the end of a large training barracks, and the conditions of these people who had only been there a short time were, of course, very much better, although malnutrition was evident and there was death occurring.

What was the general condition of the people there? - They had made the general condition of the barrack pretty foul already. As regards health, their general condition was not too bad and their clothing was quite reasonable. There was no typhus.

You have told us that you met Colonel Taylor whilst he was interviewing the Kommandant? - Whilst this was taking place we received a message that there was rioting round the central cookhouse, and Colonel Taylor and I went with Kramer straight down the main road into the prisoners’ camp to the cookhouse in question. Whilst we were going there there was a sound of firing in the camp At the cookhouse there was no sign of a riot and we questioned an S.S. man inside who said that some soap had stolen, but there was no evidence of that. The sound of firing continued and we went down to where there were mounds of potatoes between the third men’s camp and Camp No. 2 of the women’s compound. The firing continued up to the time of our arrival and we found dead and wounded prisoners who had been shot.

Who was doing the shooting? - S.S. men. I recognised one but I think he has since died. Kramer made no attempt at all to stop the firing.

Was the firing in any way necessary to preserve order? - Not at all, and there was no reason for it whatsoever. No attention was being given to the wounded.

What did you do? - We took steps to stop the men who looked as if they were going to fire, and warned Kramer that we would shoot any man who did so. We ordered Kramer to make his men carry the wounded to where they could be attended, and as it was not promptly carried out, we made Kramer carry one of them himself.

Did you hear any further shooting? - There was firing intermittently through the night and the next day from the guard towers.

You told us you saw Dr. Klein? - I ordered Kramer to produce his doctor and he reported to me about half-past ten that night. I gave him certain orders and a questionnaire with regard to the medical facilities and the medical state which he was to produce by first light the next morning.

The following morning did you take a tour with Kramer? - Yes. He took me to one of the open graves. He was quite callous and indifferent.

You made a medical report on the whole situation? - I did (Witness handed report, Exhibit 1.^[12]) That is a copy of the report I made. The figures of diseases were based on the list given by Dr. Klein and do not bear out the actual numbers that were in fact found afterwards. The actual figures were very much higher of conditions such as typhus, tuberculosis and starvation.

Were you present when a number of photographs were taken on the 15th and 16th? - Yes. The photographs are an accurate representation of the conditions I found in so far as they can be represented in this way (Exhibit 2).

In the course of your career have you ever seen anything like this before? - I have been a doctor for 30 years and have seen all the horrors of war, but I have never seen anything to touch it.

Did there appear to have been any attempt made at all to preserve the lives and health of the inmates of that camp? - Absolutely none.

Cross-examined by Major WINWOOD - In Camp No. 1, the main hutted camp, if the water system had been in working order what do you say about the lavatory condition? - Quite incapable of dealing with the requirements in regard to the diseases that were most prevalent. There was one lavatory per hut, and in some huts there was only one seat, although I think there were more in the larger ones.

How many of these concrete ponds of water were there? - There may have been five or six, but they were all empty. I did not go round them in detail.

If there had been a bed for every internee, could they have all gotten into the huts? - No.

Do you know which cookhouse cooked for which camp? - I did not go round them in detail, but I should have said two were for men, two for women, and one in the middle was a communal one for both men and women.

Where was the food stored? - There were various food stores alongside the cookhouses, and I think there was another one on the left-hand side as you went down through the area. There was a German supply depot a little from the main camp.

Did you yourself on the first day, go into the main store in No. 1 Camp? - On the first evening we posted tanks round that store to protect it. I did not actually go into it that night.

When you arrived at the camp were the cookhouses, working? - There was nobody working where I was told there was rioting. The next day they were working, but we had taken over the administration then.

If the Red Cross boxes had been issued, how far would they have gone round? - Not very far.

Was the medical store a suitable place to place them in? - Yes.

Was it not quite a reasonable thing to issue that stuff out to children? - Quite reasonable to issue the sweets to the children, but even more reasonable if they had issued what there was to the doctors.

Supposing all internees in Belsen Concentration Camp had been healthy people, what medical organization would you suggest should have been present? - There was only one German doctor there, which was quite inadequate. If they had all been well, with the normal sickness rate of a population of that size, they would have needed proper hospital accommodation more doctors and nurses.

If the vast majority of internees when they arrived had been hungry, emaciated and in many cases sick, what do you say about the medical administration required? - If we, the British Army, could do it with the few personnel we had available till the capitulation occurred, they could have done it much more easily with the number which they had actually in the neighbourhood when we arrived. We stamped out the outbreak of typhus within a fortnight of arriving with 68 men. Kramer had many more men available than that, and in the neighbouring barracks there was a large number of Hungarians before the Wehrmacht took over from the S.S. I think there were over 1500.

How long did Dr. Klein have to make his investigation and report? - He had 24 hours, but I presume, as the only medical officer, he should have been in daily possession of all returns, and if he had been taking any real interest in the camp he would have known that there were in fact not 1500 cases of typhus, but among the dead and the living when we arrived there were 10000.

How long had Dr. Klein been doctor in charge of the internees’ camp? - I think two months.

Did you ask him? - Yes, he said two days.

When you went on the tour of inspection was Kramer’s attitude frank? - I will not say it was frank. It was unashamed.

What time was the camp actually taken over by the British troops? - I should say about 6 o’clock.

What time did the shooting by the potato patch take place? - About 8 o'clock.

Until Colonel Taylor was in charge of the camp was it not natural for Kramer to take no action with regard to the firing without his superior officers’ orders? - Not at all. They had violated the terms of the agreement in allowing the S.S. men to have rifles to start with, and in destroying their records.

Cross-examined by Major MUNRO - Did you discover, who was in charge of Camp No. 2? - I went round with who I imagine was in charge. I should say it was No. 5 (indicating Hoessler).

When had Camp No. 2 been taken over? - Very recently.

Can you give an estimate of the number of people you think ought to have been in that part of Camp No. 2 which had been taken over? - The normal capacity of a block was 150, and there were about 600 in each instead.

Would you say that some effort had been made to supervise it? - I think so. The prisoners were organised by nationalities, which obviously made it easier.

Would the filth which had already accumulated be the natural result of overcrowding? - Yes, and partly lack of supervision of sanitation.

How many cases of malnutrition were found in Camp No. 2? - Of acute malnutrition about 500.

Is that considerably less than in Camp No. 1? - Yes.

How long do you estimate it would have taken the lesser cases of malnutrition to have reached the state you found them in? - They had only just arrived and I do not know the conditions under which they had been previously.

Immediately after the liberation were there any cases of disorderly conduct amongst the prisoners? - Yes.

Was that why tanks were stationed near the main food store? - Not entirely. It was the fear it might happen because we had only just arrived, and that was one of the precaution we took in view of the firing that went on and the fact that certain sections were obviously wanting to fight for food.

Was it necessary to fire shots in order to keep order? - I said it was not necessary to fire those shots at these men, not to keep order, which I think is quite a separate question.

During the night 15th/16th April, did the British guards not have to fire shots over the heads of prisoners? - Quite true.

How many S.S. guards were discovered in the camps at the liberation? - I think it was under 100 men and about 40 or 50 women. I think previously there had been about 200 S.S. men and approximately 100 women.

Was it the case that the intermittent shooting which was heard was done by the Hungarian soldiers? - Not on the first night because there were none there. The S.S. were put under close arrest and any shooting that went on after that may have been done by Hungarians in the tower. The shooting I heard and saw was done by the S.S., and whether the S.S. were in the towers on the first night I do not know because I did not go to see.

Do you know anything about the S.S. guards having had permission to leave a few days prior to the liberation? - The S.S. were to be removed by 1300 hours on the 12th except for those men required for the handing over of the administration who were not to be armed.

Cross-examined by Major CRANFIELD - Was the predominant feature of the appearance of the internees their emaciation? - Emaciation and apathy. Primarily starvation and privation may have been responsible for their condition.

Is typhus a wasting disease? - It is.

Does starvation over a prolonged period affect the mental capacity of the victim? - Yes, in the same way as any other disease over a long period, but our findings latterly have not been as bad as we forecast originally. We thought a lot of them might be affected permanently and some of them may be, but not nearly to the extent we feared.

Do you agree that at the time you arrived and for some period afterwards the minds of these people would be affected by prolonged starvation which they had undergone? - Certainly.

Does starvation or abstinence from food tend to produce hallucinations or mental fixations in the victim? - I imagine only in the very worst cases. It would only appear in the final stages.

In your report you give the total number of women acutely ill as 28,185 and then set out diseases, typhus and so forth. The last item but one is surgical cases which is 178. Could you break down the figure of surgical cases into sub-groups? - Quite impossible. The surgical cases were cases of cancer and fractures, that kind of case, tumours that required operation, and these were rendered by Klein and put in not from my observation but from the report read to me by him, which was obviously incorrect.

A good deal has been said of internees receiving such severe beatings that they were hospital cases. Did any of those come to your notice? - I saw one.

For the first four days were you virtually there the whole time and after that daily over a period of some weeks? - Yes, some weeks, and I still go there.

Were the stacks of potatoes in rows inside the camp? - Inside the camp alongside the main road through it. There may have been other vegetables there, but it was just round the cookhouse where they stored them.

Did you see the S.S. guards attack the internees? - No.

Did you see the SS. guards attacked by anyone? - No.

Were any such instances reported to you? - No. One S.S. man was shot by one of our guards when trying to escape, I think.

Cross-examined by Captain ROBERTS - Would it be true to say that in the later stages of starvation the desire for food would become an obsession? - The later stages would be complete indifference.

Would that desire for food become an obsession on the part of the person at any stage? - Undoubtedly, because we always have the desire to live.

Would that obsession be such that no verbal orders would deter the person from seeking after food? - Amongst the bolder spirits.

Would force be necessary to stop them? - Force may even be necessary, but it would not have taken very much to prevent these wakened people from doing it.

Cross-examined by Captain CORBALLY - Was there hospital accommodation for the S.S. guards in either camp? - There was a most beautiful military hospital in Camp No. 2.

Were there S.S. medical orderlies there?- I do not know that it was an S.S. hospital. It was a German military hospital. They had doctors, nurses, and orderlies.

How far was this from No. 1 Camp? - The German military hospital was on the far side of Camp No. 2, which would make it perhaps a mile and a half from Camp No. 1.

Could you describe the system of issuing food to the internees? - As far as I know they had these cookhouses which consisted chiefly of large boilers, and I imagine that each cookhouse was responsible for so many compounds and the large containers were filled with this watery soup. In some cookhouses it required three cookings to produce one meal for, the actual compound for which that cookhouse was responsible. I think the block leaders sent so many internees to fetch the containers to the compound and after that I should imagine it would be very nearly a "free for all" and the weakest could not obtain it.

Would you agree that when there is a lot of food it is easier to ensure that everybody in the camp gets at least some? - Quite.

Would you agree that one of the reasons why it was easier for the administration as soon as we took over the camp to ensure that everybody got more than a starvation diet was because we had far more food? - The main reason was that we saw that it was done because we made an effort which was not made before.

Did we continue to allow the internees to wait on each other? - In the initial stages we had to, but we supervised with our N.C.Os, and we saw the distribution from the cookhouses was correct.

What was the ration scale on the first day, after the camp came under British administration? - I cannot give you exact figures because we appreciated straight away that we could not give those people normal food. The only way we could do it to begin with was to organise two types of diet: one for the starved and one for those apparently fit and well. Later, we made five classes.

Was there any trouble with internees who tried to get more than their share? - I have no knowledge of any cases when it was supervised. I have never seen internees fighting for one potato.

Cross-examined by Captain PHILLIPS - Will you tell the Court about the crematorium at Belsen? - It had one not very big oven and I understand it could take three bodies at a time. It was not in use when I saw it, nor could I say how long it was since it had been used.

With reference to the shooting by the S. S. of the people on or about the potato patch, how many internees were there there? - There was a swarming mob up and down the main road and it is difficult to say, but I should say there were anything from 12 to 20 who had been killed or wounded in the neighbourhood. There were some, of course, who must have been hit alongside on the road but not on the potato patch.

What effect did it have upon people who were not hit? Did they stay there? - Yes, they did tend to.

What would you have considered an adequate ration for these interned persons before they were so sick? A third of the full army ration? - That would be the bare minimum and if that is a full scale ration for a robust person and you scale it down to that, it should be 1500 calories. Then it would fit only sedentary people. People in their condition required very much more of a special diet The calorific value of what they were getting was under 800 a day.

When your medical arrangements were complete to put this place straight, how many doctors had you available? - To begin with we were still fighting the battle and had very few medical units available. We then had one casualty clearing station and one light field ambulance, the full number of doctors and non-doctor officers in that being about 20. There were between 120 to 150 other ranks. In addition there would be some hygiene sections which increased the number by about 50 or 60. The exact figure for the units were, at full strength, 307 plus 54.

Had you those units by 17th April? - One hygiene section went in on the 15th and the remaining three on the 17th. It was all we could spare at that particular moment.

Would it be fair to say that this 54 and 307 was a totally inadequate force? - I do not think you can assume that, because we stamped out the typhus within a fortnight. We could have done with many more helpers to deal with these poor people adequately.

What would you say was the principal cause of the indescribable conditions at Belsen? - Neglect to keep the ordinary humanitarian rules, to feed them, to keep them clean, and to provide sanitation. I should say feeding was the most important cause, but as typhus was raging it was essential to stamp it out, otherwise we would have got further deaths from that alone.

Was the principal cause this lack of food, followed closely by the lack of washing facilities? - Not necessarily washing facilities. I do not think you quite appreciate how you handle typhus. It is a question of killing the louse and keeping them clean.

Cross-examined by Captain MUNRO - Were nearly all the internees in Belsen suffering from apathy? - All those who had been in any length of time, and who were emaciated. They got so weak that they could not get food for themselves and I suppose they had not any will-power.

When a person suffers from apathy is it not a medical fact that that person has somehow got to be roused? - Naturally.

The use of a certain amount of force is necessary on the part of the nurses or doctors? - I cannot agree force is necessary. I think the best example is the fact of seeing they had been liberated and seeing the troops. That was the incentive they had.

Would you admit that it was essential that most of these people had to be roused and got up in the morning? - They were too weak to move, the majority of them. They could not even raise themselves on their, elbows, much less get up. I agree that the fit and well should be encouraged to get out each day because it would make the organization of the cleaning easier, which was the main thing lacking. The encouragement came with the advent of the troops and the fact that they were free. They do need incentive, but the fit and well do not. They get it themselves. It is the people who are just beginning to get weak who want the incentive.

Third Day - Wednesday, 19th September, 1945

Brigadier HUGH LLEWELYN GLYN HUGHES, re-examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE - You were asked a number of questions about the necessity for guarding stores, etc. Was there a single casualty amongst the internees as a result of any firing by British troops, or any difficulty experienced in controlling the internee without force? - No.

With regard to the questions about persons who had been beaten up, did you make any general examination of patients? - That was not part of my work. I was too busy organizing measures to deal with the situation. I understood that there were cases in the hospital of persons who had been injured by beating.

Were the figures quoted in your report of diseases broken down supplied to you by Dr. Klein? - Yes, but whether he had broken them down himself I do not know. The figures of surgical cases is not a result of my own observations.

He gave a figure of about 1700 typhus, while the correct figure was nearer 10000? - Nearer 10000 among the living and dead of the approximately 14000 we hospitalised. We actually treated 3500 of these 14000.

You told us that the calorific value of the internees’ diet was under 800 calories. Would that be sufficient to maintain life over a period? - No.

Would it be inevitable that a person fed on that diet over a period would eventually starve? - Absolutely. If, in addition, they were required to work, it would very much hasten the inevitable end.

What was the attitude of the internees in the presence of the S.S. after they were freed? - If one asked an S. S, man any question in front of them, and he appealed to them, they were obviously frightened to answer.

Would starvation affect the ability of a person to recount, subsequently, what had happened to him? - Not until he was in extremis.

Was it necessary to employ the Field Hygiene Section, Casualty Clearing Station and so on to deal with the situation which had been created there, or were they necessary for the normal running of the camp? - They were required to deal with the situation which had been created there.

Were there any greater resources available to the British Army there than to the Germans before we arrived? - The Germans would have had greater, resources from the number of troops I know were in the neighbourhood.

Were there any medical personnel amongst the internees? - A large number. To my knowledge no attempt had been made to organise their services, although they, had made superhuman efforts themselves, despite the fact that they were not fit.

What Wehrmacht accommodation was there close to the concentration camp? - There was this beautiful military hospital, which was built to accommodate 500 very generously but in which we were able to put quite comfortably between 1000 and 2000, and there were eight barrack blocks which had been taken over as a German military hospital for battle casualties, and in which were approximately 604 patients.

One of the reasons you suggested for the death of these people was their apathy, and you were asked whether or not a proper treatment for apathy was to force people out of their beds in the morning. If a man is ill and starving, what is the proper thing to do with him in the morning, apart from feeding him? - Feeding him, washing him and seeing that he is perfectly comfortable. Cases like this require almost individual attention - feeding with small amounts frequently and everything which can possibly be done for them. They should not be made to make any muscular effort.

Could dragging them from their beds by force or beating them be proper treatment? - No.

Could forcing them to stand, sometime for hours at a time, on a roll-call be proper treatment? - The worst they could do.

Could forcing them to work be proper treatment? - No.

Did you detect any sign amongst any of the S.S. or guards, the Kommandant, or the doctor at that internment camp of any care for the health or well-being of the internees? - None a all; they seemed perfectly indifferent.

By the JUDGE ADVOCATE - What has been done to Camp No. 1 to change it from what it was at the time this happened to what it is to-day? - No. 1 Camp has been completely evacuated and was burned on 21st May, except for the administration block nearest the road, which was occupied by S.S.

It is not now possible then to see an example of one of these huts or a cookhouse? - Not in Camp No. 1. There was one brick cookhouse, the walls of which may be standing, but it bears no resemblance to what it was at the time. Camp No. 2 is in exactly the same condition as it was in April, 1945.

By a Member of the Court - Were the food supplies actually in that camp, but not issued, sufficient to feed the internees for a period? - Yes. There were supplies in the cookhouse which would have supplied meals daily for a day or two.

Do you know where the nearest supply depot used for the camp was, and whether there was a good supply in it? - Within two miles, and I understand the supply was good. It was under German military control. There was a bakery, and I think probably a civilian dairy quite close.

Can you tell us a little more about the medical supplies available in the camp? - They, were in a building in the administrative area and contained quite large stocks, although they were short of certain things - I think dressings, although I believe a large stock was found in another hut - and they were short of anaesthetics. Within a very short time of going there we collected 45 three-ton loads of captured German medical supplies in that area.

By another Member of the Court - Apart from the camp doctor, what was the German medical staff at the camp? - Nil.

By the PRESIDENT - How many Red Cross boxes were there? - One room full.